How much tech is too much? With Merve Lapus from Common Sense Media

00:00:00.017 --> 00:00:05.157
You are listening

00:00:05.157 --> 00:00:08.497
to the balancing act podcast here's your hosts jamie

00:00:08.497 --> 00:00:16.477
wonko and joe vitale well hey she's ready are you ready i mean who isn't well

00:00:16.477 --> 00:00:20.957
we are officially recording hey buddy how are you hey how are you mr vitale

00:00:20.957 --> 00:00:25.737
it's me jamie wonko hey from a hot hot day i know a hot.

00:00:25.897 --> 00:00:29.617
Day wearing a um uh material

00:00:29.617 --> 00:00:32.517
that i just i can't want to wear it i can't want to

00:00:32.517 --> 00:00:35.397
wear it so we had sports jersey day today at school and

00:00:35.397 --> 00:00:38.217
somebody was not a very big fan of like i don't

00:00:38.217 --> 00:00:41.197
like doing this feels on my body and i get it i

00:00:41.197 --> 00:00:45.037
get it i'm not an athlete yes that's

00:00:45.037 --> 00:00:47.997
why you figured it must be us all all

00:00:47.997 --> 00:00:50.837
the sports ball all the time my favorite part of that story from today

00:00:50.837 --> 00:00:53.677
was how your son was trying to explain who the

00:00:53.677 --> 00:00:56.417
jersey was and what the player was and you were like yeah i

00:00:56.417 --> 00:00:59.497
don't want to know i just want to leave and then you mean blah blah

00:00:59.497 --> 00:01:03.517
blah i'm like no thank you well

00:01:03.517 --> 00:01:06.597
look i am uh i'm very excited we have a guest in the wings i'm

00:01:06.597 --> 00:01:09.457
very excited to uh bring him on for a variety of reasons

00:01:09.457 --> 00:01:12.277
which which i'll get into um but i

00:01:12.277 --> 00:01:15.757
want to uh definitely welcome uh merv

00:01:15.757 --> 00:01:18.617
lapoose hello sir uh it is

00:01:18.617 --> 00:01:22.537
awesome to uh have you here with us um here

00:01:22.537 --> 00:01:25.377
on the balancing act podcast on human content so thanks a lot for joining us

00:01:25.377 --> 00:01:29.637
man oh my gosh my my plan i was just waiting for the invite i'm like yo i've

00:01:29.637 --> 00:01:33.297
got joe for some time now yes jamie she's got she's got an energy i'm like why

00:01:33.297 --> 00:01:38.937
am i not on this podcast so listen uh we listen we you and i go back uh before

00:01:38.937 --> 00:01:42.897
this i remember being and and i asked you today we were talking about it uh,

00:01:43.646 --> 00:01:47.326
You gave a presentation at an SHI conference like a bazillion years ago.

00:01:49.006 --> 00:01:54.006
And I remember sitting there. Excuse me. What is SHI? SHI was like a company.

00:01:54.246 --> 00:01:56.246
It's like some kind of tech company.

00:01:56.566 --> 00:02:03.566
What is SHI? Yeah. Software company that brought a lot of different tools into the education space.

00:02:03.666 --> 00:02:06.666
I mean, I'm down with OPP, but I didn't know SHI.

00:02:08.286 --> 00:02:12.926
So it's the under under. Like if you're down with OPP, you need to get deep.

00:02:12.926 --> 00:02:15.786
This is the underground so i remember being there

00:02:15.786 --> 00:02:18.686
and and you presented at the conference and you you put

00:02:18.686 --> 00:02:21.466
up a graphic that and again i was talking about it

00:02:21.466 --> 00:02:24.106
earlier today and and it wasn't in that presentation you had sent to

00:02:24.106 --> 00:02:29.426
me anyway anyway it was a graphic that was like and and you said like um we've

00:02:29.426 --> 00:02:34.366
produced more data in the last two years or 10 years or whatever whatever the

00:02:34.366 --> 00:02:38.586
facts and figures were then we had in all other human history combined and my

00:02:38.586 --> 00:02:41.746
yeah i i my brain just went, wait, wait, what?

00:02:41.986 --> 00:02:45.086
And like, I kind of perked up and I, you know, I was paying attention during

00:02:45.086 --> 00:02:46.146
the conference. Don't get me wrong.

00:02:46.506 --> 00:02:49.626
But that was really eyeopening statement to me. And I immediately snapped the

00:02:49.626 --> 00:02:51.626
picture of it, which of course I can't find.

00:02:52.346 --> 00:02:56.566
Um, and I remember going over that with students and, and other staff members

00:02:56.566 --> 00:02:59.146
and like showing them that and just how like dynamic that was.

00:02:59.246 --> 00:03:02.646
So we met a bunch of different times and started talking and did some stuff during the pandemic.

00:03:02.946 --> 00:03:07.186
And, um, can you imagine I said that like, I don't know how long time,

00:03:07.366 --> 00:03:10.646
how long ago, So where are we now, right? Yeah.

00:03:11.906 --> 00:03:15.306
So we're at a point where AI is the worst that it'll ever be in its lifetime.

00:03:15.306 --> 00:03:21.626
We are at a point where we've created probably a thousand X of these data points

00:03:21.626 --> 00:03:27.026
than that one moment you're presenting. So it can't be a different time.

00:03:27.466 --> 00:03:30.446
So, and when Jamie and I were thinking of starting a podcast,

00:03:30.626 --> 00:03:33.086
you and I met in Philly and I said like, hey man, this is what I'm thinking

00:03:33.086 --> 00:03:34.326
of doing. What do you think?

00:03:34.926 --> 00:03:37.686
And you're a yes and guy, man. that's what

00:03:37.686 --> 00:03:40.826
i love about you so much like if i run an idea by you it's like

00:03:40.826 --> 00:03:43.506
yeah yes and and then we can and then you

00:03:43.506 --> 00:03:46.326
should and i was just like okay i kind of got the wheels turning i said

00:03:46.326 --> 00:03:49.366
like you know and definitely want to have you on as a guest at some point and

00:03:49.366 --> 00:03:55.146
here we are so i'm really excited circle yeah full circle um to get my my west

00:03:55.146 --> 00:04:01.766
coast buddy um but via new jersey let's not forget um it's where it all started

00:04:01.766 --> 00:04:04.846
and quite honestly it's like i've got family new jersey I really should be seeing

00:04:04.846 --> 00:04:06.566
you more often if I am out there seeing my family.

00:04:06.946 --> 00:04:12.246
Yeah, I know. We got it. Yes. So let's go back in the time machine. Yeah.

00:04:14.806 --> 00:04:18.026
And tell us, Murph, tell us a little bit about your background,

00:04:18.306 --> 00:04:25.426
yourself, you know, some of your experience, you know, before you and Joe met, maybe. Sure. Sure.

00:04:25.803 --> 00:04:31.683
Yeah, sure. So I've been in ed tech for probably over 26, 27 years now.

00:04:32.203 --> 00:04:37.123
I actually started off by, so I was teaching seventh grade for a little bit.

00:04:37.223 --> 00:04:40.023
And then after that, I moved into the after school space where I was working

00:04:40.023 --> 00:04:44.723
with a program called Success Maker, which was then kind of like underneath

00:04:44.723 --> 00:04:48.403
an organization called SCORE, which was like under a Kaplan.

00:04:48.403 --> 00:04:50.483
And so I was in this after school program.

00:04:50.623 --> 00:04:54.843
My whole focus was using this tool to try and uncover where the skill gaps were

00:04:54.843 --> 00:04:58.523
for English and math for kids from kindergarten to high school level.

00:04:58.703 --> 00:05:01.603
And so that was my first kind of like jaunt into like, all right,

00:05:01.723 --> 00:05:02.823
understanding the tech and its

00:05:02.823 --> 00:05:05.863
creation and how do we apply it to really understand the needs of kids.

00:05:05.863 --> 00:05:10.103
And then after that timeframe, ended up going in a couple of different directions

00:05:10.103 --> 00:05:14.623
from going all the way up to higher education and working at university levels.

00:05:14.623 --> 00:05:19.123
I had this big like feelings like, oh, I want to I want to work at a university.

00:05:19.763 --> 00:05:23.463
I had such a great time in my undergrad, kind of being in leadership.

00:05:23.643 --> 00:05:26.963
I was like, I want to really kind of impact that and do that kind of work.

00:05:27.643 --> 00:05:30.943
And had my had my opportunities in doing that. And then quickly realized the

00:05:30.943 --> 00:05:33.523
kids that I was serving, or the young adults at the time I was serving,

00:05:33.723 --> 00:05:37.423
were clearly not ready for university for a number of reasons.

00:05:38.203 --> 00:05:42.103
Academics were a big part, but then just so much more in addition to that.

00:05:42.223 --> 00:05:48.583
So I went back into the K-12 space and then started working with another company

00:05:48.583 --> 00:05:55.083
that was building at that time an exam that we needed in California for kids

00:05:55.083 --> 00:05:58.223
to pass in order for them to actually get their diploma.

00:05:58.223 --> 00:06:00.963
So you can graduate but not walk, essentially, in California,

00:06:00.963 --> 00:06:04.323
if you didn't pass what they call that KC, that California High School Exit Exam.

00:06:04.743 --> 00:06:09.963
And in that work, we had to go up against a series of really established companies

00:06:09.963 --> 00:06:15.143
to then kind of become this adopted resource and tool that we then created,

00:06:15.283 --> 00:06:18.583
which, again, was an edtech product to identify the skill gaps that needs of

00:06:18.583 --> 00:06:21.983
kids so that we can get kids to actually graduate and build up those skill gaps.

00:06:21.983 --> 00:06:24.203
And in that work, working with districts.

00:06:24.603 --> 00:06:28.123
And so one, it's like working with districts. Two, it was then it was about implementation.

00:06:28.123 --> 00:06:31.903
And then three, it was about professional development and really building educators

00:06:31.903 --> 00:06:36.103
up to one, understand the value, be able to implement, and then really celebrate

00:06:36.103 --> 00:06:37.183
those wins and opportunities.

00:06:37.183 --> 00:06:43.683
And in that work, found this organization called Common Sense that asked essentially

00:06:43.683 --> 00:06:46.303
of me to do the same kind of work I was doing in the ed tech space,

00:06:46.343 --> 00:06:49.163
but with a bottom line of service and impact,

00:06:49.543 --> 00:06:54.243
not necessarily how many dollars I brought in to this really great tool that I really believed in.

00:06:54.783 --> 00:07:00.583
So that's how it all kind of started. That's what kind of got me into the business, essentially.

00:07:01.003 --> 00:07:03.683
That and I love tech forever. Every time there's an announcement,

00:07:03.683 --> 00:07:08.063
it's in my calendar. I'm like oh big Google announcement big Apple announcement

00:07:08.063 --> 00:07:11.383
big whatever I'm one of those guys where I literally it's like I've got one

00:07:11.383 --> 00:07:12.543
of my three screens on and,

00:07:13.048 --> 00:07:17.148
I'm, I want to get all in. Um, and then I had a family and then I was like,

00:07:17.208 --> 00:07:20.168
okay, what are the impacts of all this stuff on my family?

00:07:20.308 --> 00:07:24.808
So I've essentially raised my kids, um, in common sense, uh,

00:07:24.868 --> 00:07:29.608
through this work and have the opportunity of just working with educators from around the country.

00:07:29.748 --> 00:07:35.308
We're currently now, uh, 90,000 registered schools, uh, using our resources,

00:07:35.308 --> 00:07:40.148
uh, additional 6,000 internationally, about 1.4 million educators that access

00:07:40.148 --> 00:07:42.448
our, um, resources, uh, annually.

00:07:43.728 --> 00:07:47.788
Wow. And there's been a lot of it. There's been a shift, right?

00:07:47.928 --> 00:07:53.748
At least I can feel it, where there are a lot of districts and individual schools.

00:07:53.948 --> 00:07:59.708
Individual teachers in their classroom that are getting away from ed tech a

00:07:59.708 --> 00:08:02.288
little bit because of the amount of screen time.

00:08:02.288 --> 00:08:05.428
Um you know we've talked a little bit about gamification here

00:08:05.428 --> 00:08:08.868
where uh like everything is gamified uh.

00:08:08.868 --> 00:08:12.228
And and maybe maybe that's a little bit of an overkill and

00:08:12.228 --> 00:08:14.908
i kind of would like to pick your brain and get

00:08:14.908 --> 00:08:17.908
some some thoughts on on where you see common sense's

00:08:17.908 --> 00:08:20.748
role um or like that role because you

00:08:20.748 --> 00:08:24.068
mentioned just before like you brought your kids up in this right and can

00:08:24.068 --> 00:08:26.848
i ask again how old your kids are for our listeners if you don't mind

00:08:26.848 --> 00:08:29.748
12 and 14 12 and 14 and i'm i'm

00:08:29.748 --> 00:08:32.768
you know i have two 16 year olds jamie's we're all in the same boat

00:08:32.768 --> 00:08:36.028
in the same commute rowing in the same direction so and we're

00:08:36.028 --> 00:08:38.828
experiencing that on a regular you know on a regular basis with our

00:08:38.828 --> 00:08:41.508
kids about what they're what they're doing or what they should be

00:08:41.508 --> 00:08:44.488
doing but i'm kind of wondering what like what your

00:08:44.488 --> 00:08:47.648
kids are experiencing in their classes and what you know you think

00:08:47.648 --> 00:08:50.408
um might things might look like in

00:08:50.408 --> 00:08:53.808
the next couple years as we decide to to maybe for

00:08:53.808 --> 00:08:56.988
a variety of different reasons scale

00:08:56.988 --> 00:09:00.408
back some of the ed tech that's in the classrooms sure so

00:09:00.408 --> 00:09:03.408
i think there's so this brings up a couple a number

00:09:03.408 --> 00:09:06.868
of things um one of them i think there's let's

00:09:06.868 --> 00:09:10.528
just kind of recognize the timeline that got us here right we've we had kind

00:09:10.528 --> 00:09:13.448
of tech coming up in the classroom i'm i operated with cows like computers on

00:09:13.448 --> 00:09:18.768
wheels and then i grew up with like i never heard it referred to as that cows

00:09:18.768 --> 00:09:22.328
yeah you got all the computers just on that one cart you're sharing it across

00:09:22.328 --> 00:09:24.188
your entire middle school okay um.

00:09:25.255 --> 00:09:28.595
I came up with the two computers in the back of the class. Like everyone just

00:09:28.595 --> 00:09:29.615
signs up. You got to do good.

00:09:29.735 --> 00:09:33.415
And you get like your 20 minutes of time on Oregon Trail to try and just get

00:09:33.415 --> 00:09:34.735
past, you know, hunting.

00:09:35.035 --> 00:09:37.215
Right. Oh, I died at dysentery so many times.

00:09:37.715 --> 00:09:40.075
Yes. Every time I feel like. Yeah.

00:09:41.035 --> 00:09:44.635
So we went from that, you know, and then we recognized that there was this big

00:09:44.635 --> 00:09:48.335
divide that existed in not just our communities, but then even in our schools.

00:09:48.355 --> 00:09:51.375
And there was a race to connect all of our schools. And then in that race,

00:09:51.875 --> 00:09:56.895
then we then found all these great new tools that came out, especially like iPads and Chromebooks.

00:09:56.995 --> 00:10:01.975
And then there was this big app gap, essentially, where only schools that had

00:10:01.975 --> 00:10:07.235
access to funding or resources can really then bring these apps and tools into the classroom.

00:10:07.395 --> 00:10:10.755
And then there became this thing that I called a lit rift, a literacy rift.

00:10:11.115 --> 00:10:15.075
Now we've got all these tools. And how do we really understand how the tools

00:10:15.075 --> 00:10:17.695
work, the impact of the tools, and how are they then impacting our kids?

00:10:17.695 --> 00:10:21.975
And then on top of that, you've got this big umbrella of social media and reality

00:10:21.975 --> 00:10:27.175
television and just big differences in the way that kids are consuming and receiving media and content.

00:10:27.355 --> 00:10:30.115
And then that then follows them into their schools.

00:10:30.795 --> 00:10:33.655
So then we have lockdown, right?

00:10:33.755 --> 00:10:37.875
And in that time leading up to lockdown and COVID, there was already a push

00:10:37.875 --> 00:10:39.915
around like cell phones kind of being the equalizer.

00:10:40.055 --> 00:10:42.335
We cannot afford one-to-one devices.

00:10:42.755 --> 00:10:45.675
So we're bringing in cell phones because kids have that personal device and

00:10:45.675 --> 00:10:48.635
that can give them access to content. And then we had the shutdowns,

00:10:48.675 --> 00:10:52.655
and then that prodded in a lot of money, and that became one-to-one,

00:10:52.735 --> 00:10:54.075
and everyone went one-to-one.

00:10:54.415 --> 00:11:00.155
And now, we are finding, or at least recognizing, that in many classrooms,

00:11:00.155 --> 00:11:05.815
there is a recognition that, oh, maybe we went all in too much, too fast.

00:11:05.995 --> 00:11:10.055
Maybe there are really great opportunities that technology is not needed for.

00:11:10.215 --> 00:11:13.075
And how do we just really recognize, when do we need it?

00:11:13.255 --> 00:11:16.555
How do we use it? And when do we not need it? And how do we put it away?

00:11:16.795 --> 00:11:21.135
Right um and i think that's just on the instructional side right,

00:11:21.852 --> 00:11:24.672
And then there's the bigger conversation around all of our kids,

00:11:24.832 --> 00:11:27.732
well, not all of our kids, but a large majority of kids, especially if you're

00:11:27.732 --> 00:11:30.172
looking at fifth grade and above, now have their own personal devices.

00:11:30.492 --> 00:11:32.712
And how does that now then impact the classroom?

00:11:33.612 --> 00:11:37.832
And those are big conversations that are happening on top of just really thinking

00:11:37.832 --> 00:11:40.532
about our current state with technology.

00:11:40.572 --> 00:11:45.252
And let's be honest, we've got to think about it on an instructional lead.

00:11:45.452 --> 00:11:48.892
We've also got to think about it on a fiscal availability.

00:11:49.572 --> 00:11:54.672
After all this funding came in, we invested into all of these learning management

00:11:54.672 --> 00:11:58.652
systems, different technology, as well as one-to-one devices.

00:11:59.072 --> 00:12:01.912
But these devices will age out at some point.

00:12:02.032 --> 00:12:06.192
And how do we sustain the use of those devices? don't necessarily know that

00:12:06.192 --> 00:12:09.632
there's funding built in for every school district to be able to maintain that.

00:12:09.832 --> 00:12:14.252
So there's that reality of projecting in the future coupled with the reality

00:12:14.252 --> 00:12:18.992
of we are looking at what are ways that we kind of pull back on just direct

00:12:18.992 --> 00:12:23.872
instruction through tech and leveraging it really when it's beneficial and when

00:12:23.872 --> 00:12:26.512
we want it available and present. Yeah.

00:12:30.932 --> 00:12:39.112
Sorry, go ahead, Jim. No, yeah, we recently had about a month time period where we went techless.

00:12:39.432 --> 00:12:42.412
And, and it was, so it was a really interesting exercise.

00:12:42.852 --> 00:12:48.632
And I think it gave us all an, you know, just this, this experience of looking

00:12:48.632 --> 00:12:53.152
at, you know, why we use it, how much, is it enough, what's worth it,

00:12:53.252 --> 00:12:54.292
what did we miss, you know.

00:12:54.292 --> 00:12:59.092
So, but at the same time, I was one of the first people to go one-to-one in

00:12:59.092 --> 00:13:02.892
2016, like the 2016-2017 school year.

00:13:03.112 --> 00:13:06.892
And so then going into the pandemic, I felt really prepared,

00:13:06.892 --> 00:13:11.112
where I think that I was very, very lucky for that,

00:13:11.272 --> 00:13:18.232
where I watched other people go into it without that same level of preparation. situation.

00:13:18.492 --> 00:13:23.292
And, and I, and so I think that that has also hurt a lot of the,

00:13:23.432 --> 00:13:26.772
you know, like the misuse, because they just weren't really,

00:13:26.972 --> 00:13:28.232
it was just like, I have to do this.

00:13:28.292 --> 00:13:34.332
And you don't have to, you know, but at the same time, how, how do you figure

00:13:34.332 --> 00:13:36.312
out when is, you know, enough?

00:13:36.532 --> 00:13:38.532
Or is it too much? Or, and then of.

00:13:40.703 --> 00:13:44.823
Of course, I do kind of lean to the side of, don't take it away,

00:13:44.843 --> 00:13:50.663
you know, because there are certain things that I know are much more interesting,

00:13:50.843 --> 00:13:55.163
engaging, and work for me and my students in my classroom.

00:13:55.323 --> 00:13:58.883
So, you know, it's all about, you know, what's going to work and what's not going to work.

00:13:59.083 --> 00:14:01.563
There are a lot of people, now, you live in California, there's a lot of people

00:14:01.563 --> 00:14:05.063
I've heard that will say, like, oh, California, they don't, they don't even use computers.

00:14:05.903 --> 00:14:08.143
You know, oh, they're getting rid of them. They're getting rid of them,

00:14:08.183 --> 00:14:09.963
those tech people over there on the West Coast.

00:14:10.583 --> 00:14:14.503
What do you tell us? Is that true? I mean, we hear about it a lot of,

00:14:14.643 --> 00:14:15.723
especially in independent schools.

00:14:15.903 --> 00:14:21.323
I can't say that that's happening in as many, I would say kind of like middle

00:14:21.323 --> 00:14:28.383
of the road school districts, maybe in more, you know, high access districts.

00:14:28.383 --> 00:14:31.743
They might find that they're bringing in kind of really instructional designers

00:14:31.743 --> 00:14:35.563
and professional PD that allows for those educators to kind of get that deeper

00:14:35.563 --> 00:14:42.003
training of like becoming a little bit more malleable again with their teacher

00:14:42.003 --> 00:14:45.203
practice from just previous years of what almost felt like.

00:14:46.183 --> 00:14:47.543
We just need to figure it out.

00:14:47.663 --> 00:14:52.703
Let's do the best. And then that just kind of becomes your blueprint for how

00:14:52.703 --> 00:14:53.963
to do the next year, right?

00:14:54.383 --> 00:14:57.083
But in order to kind of disrupt that or kind of reshape that,

00:14:57.223 --> 00:15:01.583
you need attention, you need time, you need training, and you need to be able

00:15:01.583 --> 00:15:05.363
to really make sure that it's adapted to kind of your outcomes of expectations.

00:15:05.963 --> 00:15:10.663
As an educator, we can't just like put out this big, broad, you know,

00:15:10.783 --> 00:15:15.083
ideas and expect them all to kind of make the changes themselves. It's a lot to ask.

00:15:15.943 --> 00:15:21.403
So I will say it's not necessarily happening across the Bay or across California,

00:15:21.423 --> 00:15:24.143
but there are definitely kind of those pockets of conversations.

00:15:24.143 --> 00:15:27.503
And there's definitely broad discussion, not just in California and many other

00:15:27.503 --> 00:15:31.703
states where they are thinking, how much tech do we actually need? What's its purpose?

00:15:31.823 --> 00:15:38.023
What's its intent? And now that we're at a space where we can have kids in the

00:15:38.023 --> 00:15:42.083
classroom using tech, how are we really leveraging it for its intention?

00:15:43.403 --> 00:15:47.403
So one of the things that came about from that presentation that I sat in of

00:15:47.403 --> 00:15:52.683
yours was, and I still have this picture, because it was also eye-opening to

00:15:52.683 --> 00:15:55.843
me because here I am sitting in a presentation with two 10-year-olds at home.

00:15:55.843 --> 00:16:01.483
And, you know, they're in elementary school and you posted a quote from Linda

00:16:01.483 --> 00:16:04.323
Darling Hammond from Stanford University.

00:16:04.563 --> 00:16:07.623
Schools must prepare students for jobs that do not yet exist,

00:16:07.803 --> 00:16:10.843
creating ideas and solutions for products and problems that have not yet been

00:16:10.843 --> 00:16:14.743
identified using technologies that have not yet been invented.

00:16:14.963 --> 00:16:16.183
So there we are sitting there.

00:16:17.307 --> 00:16:22.387
That's a deep, very deep comment. But now are we at yet another tipping point

00:16:22.387 --> 00:16:27.287
when we talk about, you know, AI and AI tools and how they're going to be used in a classroom?

00:16:27.287 --> 00:16:31.047
Because there we are literally like using tools that haven't been invented yet

00:16:31.047 --> 00:16:34.747
for jobs that are not yet in existence.

00:16:34.747 --> 00:16:37.687
Um yeah it's so it's so dynamic

00:16:37.687 --> 00:16:41.487
to me on a macro level to think about um you

00:16:41.487 --> 00:16:46.087
know what that's going to look like for not just my kids my own children but

00:16:46.087 --> 00:16:49.547
like the kids that i teach right now what's it going to look like for them when

00:16:49.547 --> 00:16:53.427
they get into college and you're the same age right like i teach seventh grade

00:16:53.427 --> 00:16:56.587
you know we're in middle school so that's where your kids are like what is that

00:16:56.587 --> 00:16:59.647
going to look like and nobody knows the answer to that i mean i think the re

00:16:59.647 --> 00:17:01.207
I think the reality is this, however,

00:17:01.467 --> 00:17:04.927
in general, our jobs are to prepare

00:17:04.927 --> 00:17:08.727
kids to be able to address or at least hopefully have a foundation.

00:17:09.107 --> 00:17:11.127
And I say this as a parent as well as an educator.

00:17:11.867 --> 00:17:15.667
I'm going to lean toward the parent side first. I want to prepare my kids so

00:17:15.667 --> 00:17:18.787
that regardless of when or where they run into a situation,

00:17:18.947 --> 00:17:22.987
I've given them enough fundamentals to be able to think critically about it

00:17:22.987 --> 00:17:25.587
and make the decision that's going to be morally imperative,

00:17:25.587 --> 00:17:29.127
that's going to really align with their

00:17:29.447 --> 00:17:32.467
ideals um and that they know right from wrong

00:17:32.467 --> 00:17:35.927
right and regardless that's either that's online and

00:17:35.927 --> 00:17:40.967
that's offline and you know academically we need to provide a foundation of

00:17:40.967 --> 00:17:44.667
critical thinking for our kids so that they can really understand like really

00:17:44.667 --> 00:17:49.947
test against what do i want to get from this how do i align with this how do

00:17:49.947 --> 00:17:53.047
i find counter arguments some a foundation of learning,

00:17:53.207 --> 00:17:57.887
a foundation of value and inquiry, right,

00:17:58.327 --> 00:18:02.127
that they can then apply anywhere they go and anytime they need it.

00:18:02.347 --> 00:18:05.027
I think we build up a lot of these skills. We hope that we build these skills

00:18:05.027 --> 00:18:08.267
in the classroom space. We also want to make sure that they are transferable.

00:18:08.607 --> 00:18:12.647
We want our kids to be able to take this and do this offline when they're alone,

00:18:12.987 --> 00:18:16.427
studying alone or interacting and engaging with media and technology alone.

00:18:16.607 --> 00:18:19.507
It doesn't mean they have to be immersed full tech in the classroom in order

00:18:19.507 --> 00:18:20.567
to be able to do that at home.

00:18:20.787 --> 00:18:23.487
It means that we need to be able to build them into that understanding and draw

00:18:23.487 --> 00:18:25.527
those connections from them through practice,

00:18:25.767 --> 00:18:29.027
through role modeling, and through reinforcing those types of conversations

00:18:29.027 --> 00:18:33.587
in a very open and honest way, one that actually ties and connects them to the

00:18:33.587 --> 00:18:36.727
discussion, not one that's just trying to almost kind of like.

00:18:37.409 --> 00:18:40.529
Kind of catch them in the act or get them to to um

00:18:40.529 --> 00:18:43.729
you know see your your way that just it just that

00:18:43.729 --> 00:18:46.889
just teaches them to you know pass the quiz or

00:18:46.889 --> 00:18:50.149
yeah you know complete the exit ticket and move on right

00:18:50.149 --> 00:18:53.169
yeah where do

00:18:53.169 --> 00:18:56.429
you uh stand uh personally on social

00:18:56.429 --> 00:18:59.229
media with your own kids yeah so

00:18:59.229 --> 00:19:02.249
my kids don't have social media um the closest thing

00:19:02.249 --> 00:19:05.069
they have to it is pinterest um but even with that

00:19:05.069 --> 00:19:07.829
we have a number of conversations because you know depending on what

00:19:07.829 --> 00:19:11.369
your interests are my kids are really interested in anime anime has

00:19:11.369 --> 00:19:14.369
yep a large continuum yeah

00:19:14.369 --> 00:19:17.069
what can be shown um so we have

00:19:17.069 --> 00:19:19.829
a lot of these open conversations and and in addition to that

00:19:19.829 --> 00:19:22.789
i've been having these conversations with them since they were young and i

00:19:22.789 --> 00:19:25.829
tell them all the time you will never get in trouble coming to

00:19:25.829 --> 00:19:29.129
me for something that was uncomfortable or something that you

00:19:29.129 --> 00:19:32.389
thought you were doing the right decision but it didn't turn out right um

00:19:32.389 --> 00:19:35.029
you'll you'll never get in trouble for coming to me

00:19:35.029 --> 00:19:37.949
to ask questions for find to find

00:19:37.949 --> 00:19:41.349
guidance um or explore it and at any

00:19:41.349 --> 00:19:44.209
cost you will get in trouble if you

00:19:44.209 --> 00:19:47.009
are purposely hiding something because that means you know you did

00:19:47.009 --> 00:19:49.969
something wrong you're trying to get away with it that's where you run into issues.

00:19:49.969 --> 00:19:52.809
Right but you'll never get in trouble if you

00:19:52.809 --> 00:19:55.669
run into if you run into something or you just have a question and they

00:19:55.669 --> 00:19:58.469
they've come to me for a lot of things and some of them are

00:19:58.469 --> 00:20:01.309
conversations that i just didn't know i needed to have at this age

00:20:01.309 --> 00:20:04.309
but you know middle school kids talk and they

00:20:04.309 --> 00:20:07.149
share things and you know it's a

00:20:07.149 --> 00:20:10.169
whole diverse community that they attend school

00:20:10.169 --> 00:20:13.289
with and so they bring that home sometimes and so it's up to me to be able to

00:20:13.289 --> 00:20:16.749
provide that safe space so they're not only coming to me when there's a problem

00:20:16.749 --> 00:20:21.729
um and they're not only you know or they're not they're not not coming to me

00:20:21.729 --> 00:20:24.629
because they know that if they bring in a problem i'm going to act a certain

00:20:24.629 --> 00:20:27.589
way i think that's one of the biggest challenges with parents.

00:20:27.769 --> 00:20:34.689
Especially around tech, overly overreaction to the situations or oftentimes

00:20:34.689 --> 00:20:39.329
we only talk about the situations when there is a problem, not necessarily in our day to day.

00:20:39.829 --> 00:20:42.729
Oh, one of the things I practice all the time, they tell me about something

00:20:42.729 --> 00:20:46.309
interesting. Oh, have you looked it up further? Like, what more do you know about it?

00:20:47.249 --> 00:20:50.389
You know, how did you did you find a counter argument to that?

00:20:50.669 --> 00:20:53.769
Oh, no, I never really thought. Okay, let's do it now. Tell me what you get.

00:20:54.109 --> 00:20:59.289
And just kind of get them into that practice of thinking critically, right? At all times.

00:20:59.509 --> 00:21:02.129
And that is a healthy position to take on.

00:21:02.989 --> 00:21:06.549
I think that's one of my, oh, go ahead. No, has your 14 year old asked,

00:21:06.689 --> 00:21:10.569
I mean, I'm like, hey, can I get Snapchat or can I get Instagram? All right.

00:21:12.109 --> 00:21:15.729
That's all the time. And I was like, tell me what you want to get out of it.

00:21:16.089 --> 00:21:18.889
And what it always comes down to is like, oh, well, all my friends have it.

00:21:18.969 --> 00:21:20.529
I'm like, I hear that, I get it.

00:21:20.989 --> 00:21:24.169
What are they doing on there that you feel like you need to do yourself.

00:21:24.969 --> 00:21:28.489
And when I asked that question, it'll, there's the,

00:21:29.415 --> 00:21:33.255
the response typically has to do with it's where they talk the most with each

00:21:33.255 --> 00:21:38.915
other and i i say i get it and so in that way because they talk in a different platform.

00:21:40.055 --> 00:21:42.775
Because if you talk via text message with them do you

00:21:42.775 --> 00:21:43.615
feel like you're not able to

00:21:43.615 --> 00:21:45.735
have a conversation with them or do you feel like you're missing certain

00:21:45.735 --> 00:21:48.935
things oh i can talk to them as much as i want but maybe

00:21:48.935 --> 00:21:51.775
i'm just kind of missing a more direct connection to a meme they're

00:21:51.775 --> 00:21:54.475
talking about or something that's going viral there i was

00:21:54.475 --> 00:21:57.875
like well find out what those things are and we'll find them together like

00:21:57.875 --> 00:22:00.595
even if it feels super cringy and corny i'd much

00:22:00.595 --> 00:22:04.115
rather know about it because i want to make sure you're not walking into something that can

00:22:04.115 --> 00:22:07.135
potentially be turned against you yeah and i i

00:22:07.135 --> 00:22:09.875
try to stay on top of stuff too with with my middle schoolers and

00:22:09.875 --> 00:22:13.175
then all of a sudden now we're into italian brain rot and uh

00:22:13.175 --> 00:22:16.275
like uh like uh uh a plane

00:22:16.275 --> 00:22:19.775
with the head of an alligator what like why what what

00:22:19.775 --> 00:22:22.495
is it and how is it somebody tell me how

00:22:22.495 --> 00:22:25.275
it's entertaining that's what i want to do yeah okay it's not to

00:22:25.275 --> 00:22:28.435
me because like jamie and i were watching you know peewee's playhouse

00:22:28.435 --> 00:22:31.335
on a saturday morning and then we were walking around acting like

00:22:31.335 --> 00:22:35.235
peewee herman like most kids did in our age group um yeah

00:22:35.235 --> 00:22:38.215
um but it's just it's so it's so

00:22:38.215 --> 00:22:41.295
interesting to me like to try and keep up on the trends and i'll even say to

00:22:41.295 --> 00:22:44.075
my students sometimes they'll say something like all right i'm gonna google

00:22:44.075 --> 00:22:50.875
this on my work computer am i gonna get fired and they're like no you're fine

00:22:50.875 --> 00:22:56.235
so anyway um yeah i thought i i don't know if this is true or not um,

00:22:56.773 --> 00:23:01.513
But I saw a woman speaking about, as I've been fighting the anti-social media

00:23:01.513 --> 00:23:07.273
fight here, and they don't, I have twins, they're 12, and they don't ask really very often.

00:23:08.173 --> 00:23:12.933
Every once in a while, they'll kind of like, oh, what, how old do we have to be, you know?

00:23:13.673 --> 00:23:19.273
And I saw, and every once in a while, I'm like, hmm, well, 13, hmm.

00:23:19.653 --> 00:23:22.313
Every year that I get closer to the age I thought it was going to be,

00:23:22.393 --> 00:23:25.513
I keep bumping into, I don't know when.

00:23:25.513 --> 00:23:28.633
But there was a woman and she was speaking about,

00:23:28.793 --> 00:23:32.653
she was a pediatrician and she was saying, I'd rather have my child smoke than

00:23:32.653 --> 00:23:39.393
social media because at least once you're, if you quit after so many years of

00:23:39.393 --> 00:23:40.513
smoking, your lungs will regenerate.

00:23:41.453 --> 00:23:45.233
But you're going to alter your brain chemistry for the rest of your life in

00:23:45.233 --> 00:23:46.953
a way that you'll never be able to change.

00:23:47.753 --> 00:23:52.233
And I was like, well, I guess, okay, the age just became never.

00:23:52.233 --> 00:23:56.113
Yeah so i

00:23:56.113 --> 00:23:58.953
mean it sounds provocative but there's a lot of like you know

00:23:58.953 --> 00:24:01.833
this is yeah a lot of where these kids are

00:24:01.833 --> 00:24:05.713
thinking thinking about these things understand understanding long-term ethical

00:24:05.713 --> 00:24:09.713
consequences understanding impact of these quick decisions that they're making

00:24:09.713 --> 00:24:13.573
that all happens at prefrontal cortex and that's the last thing to develop and

00:24:13.573 --> 00:24:18.313
so if you're processing through these like really complex decisions without

00:24:18.313 --> 00:24:20.553
having real guidance that you've even formed yourself,

00:24:21.013 --> 00:24:23.813
then, yeah, it can have an impact in the way that you're making connections

00:24:23.813 --> 00:24:27.753
in your future, the way that you think about relationships, the way that you

00:24:27.753 --> 00:24:29.393
think about impact, right?

00:24:29.913 --> 00:24:34.873
And impact in our community used to just be centralized around our direct community.

00:24:35.133 --> 00:24:38.593
Exactly. And now we're looking at, you know, impact that can go global.

00:24:39.153 --> 00:24:45.813
And that's, you know, more likely for, you know, unfortunate things versus positive things.

00:24:46.193 --> 00:24:48.573
And that's the, I think...

00:24:49.140 --> 00:24:52.620
A lot of kids have the idea of I'm invincible.

00:24:52.840 --> 00:24:55.920
Ah, that's not going to happen to me. You know, like I talk to my son all the

00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:57.340
time who's about to be driving age.

00:24:57.420 --> 00:24:59.880
I'm like, he was looking at a car and he's looking at, you know,

00:25:00.100 --> 00:25:03.180
which he looks at a Mustang, buddy, never going to happen. Okay.

00:25:03.400 --> 00:25:08.960
Yeah. And I'm like, it's too much speed. It's too much power for you to be in a vehicle as a first car.

00:25:08.980 --> 00:25:13.060
And he's like, yeah, but you know, I'm like, no, because you think you're invincible.

00:25:13.600 --> 00:25:16.440
And sometimes these kids online, they feel like, ah, that's not going to happen

00:25:16.440 --> 00:25:19.240
to me. I'm not going to be the one that gets in trouble because I post a funny

00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:24.020
joke or I send the meme to someone or I, you know, send the picture that somebody

00:25:24.020 --> 00:25:25.340
else sent to me to somebody else.

00:25:25.460 --> 00:25:28.500
And then everybody gets in trouble. Like they never think it's going to be them, but then it is.

00:25:30.240 --> 00:25:34.040
So I know one of the reasons that we wanted to definitely talk with you today,

00:25:34.380 --> 00:25:39.240
Merv, is that you recently attended a panel about, you know, cell phones in school.

00:25:40.000 --> 00:25:45.480
Um, and there, there's been some huge conversations around that down to legislators

00:25:45.480 --> 00:25:48.940
and the governor of New Jersey saying, I want to have an unequivocal ban of

00:25:48.940 --> 00:25:51.600
cell phones during the school day in New Jersey schools.

00:25:52.120 --> 00:25:57.500
Um, which I kind of feel is like, it's putting the toothpaste back in the tube.

00:25:57.640 --> 00:26:00.060
I don't know if it's something we could actually do at this point,

00:26:00.160 --> 00:26:01.720
unless you're starting it with younger grades.

00:26:02.260 --> 00:26:08.240
Um, that's just my personal opinion. And I'm just curious as to what other school

00:26:08.240 --> 00:26:14.720
leaders in the panel that you were on had to say about that subject and basically,

00:26:14.760 --> 00:26:16.840
where do we go from here? Yeah.

00:26:17.620 --> 00:26:22.260
I mean, I think the reality is over 40 states already have some kind of policy

00:26:22.260 --> 00:26:26.340
in place or moving down the legislative pipeline when it comes to cell phone policies.

00:26:26.340 --> 00:26:30.660
Even in California, we've got a policy that mandates all schools,

00:26:30.900 --> 00:26:34.660
all districts to have a phone policy in place. It doesn't say a phone ban, though.

00:26:34.940 --> 00:26:37.300
But I think that's what's the interesting part is there are states,

00:26:37.560 --> 00:26:41.100
there's at least four states that I know of right now that have a purely,

00:26:41.100 --> 00:26:46.560
like, bell-to-bell ban, no phones allowed in the schools, right? And...

00:26:47.339 --> 00:26:51.739
So that's that. And then you've got other states, most other states where they

00:26:51.739 --> 00:26:56.679
have a policy that's focused on developing some kind of cell phone policy.

00:26:56.859 --> 00:27:00.159
And for some districts or some schools, it's going to be a straight bell to bell ban.

00:27:00.399 --> 00:27:03.539
You know, and it's easier when you're looking at younger grades. Right.

00:27:04.419 --> 00:27:08.119
But then when we think about like middle, but especially even into high school,

00:27:08.339 --> 00:27:13.379
it's going to be incredibly challenging to be able to really see that through

00:27:13.379 --> 00:27:16.479
100 percent just because of just one, the setup of the day.

00:27:17.499 --> 00:27:21.939
But then, two, just how much additional expectation we put on to our educators

00:27:21.939 --> 00:27:24.639
kind of ensure that this is going to work and it's going to happen.

00:27:25.259 --> 00:27:27.899
And then all the solutions that they come up to try and solve this,

00:27:28.119 --> 00:27:32.959
you know, they've got pouches, they've got policies around keep them in lockers

00:27:32.959 --> 00:27:37.339
or a phone collection that happens in the beginning of the day, out of sight and silent.

00:27:37.559 --> 00:27:40.799
Right. So just trusting that you're not going to see it or some other kind of

00:27:40.799 --> 00:27:44.539
in class collection. And each one of those solutions has their own benefits,

00:27:44.739 --> 00:27:50.739
along with so many other challenges that then have to be kind of figured out, like figured out.

00:27:51.019 --> 00:27:54.499
But the conversation for me, I mean,

00:27:54.519 --> 00:28:00.959
I agree there is a reality that we are wanting to ensure that we are providing

00:28:00.959 --> 00:28:06.239
the most engaging and focused kind of opportunities for instruction in the classroom.

00:28:06.239 --> 00:28:10.839
And that there is real data that shows that based on notifications,

00:28:11.019 --> 00:28:15.739
like we did this study a year and a half or so ago where we actually followed kids around.

00:28:16.279 --> 00:28:19.699
Their families allowed for us to track everything that was going on on their

00:28:19.699 --> 00:28:22.759
phone for a week to see how many notifications they were getting.

00:28:23.179 --> 00:28:29.439
And on any given day, we saw that kids were picking up their phones at least 51 times a day.

00:28:29.639 --> 00:28:35.299
On average, the highest of 498, so 500 times a day, we saw kind of the highest

00:28:35.299 --> 00:28:41.259
use cases of kids so from 51 on average just about 500 and then.

00:28:42.179 --> 00:28:45.679
How much time were they actually spending like during school

00:28:45.679 --> 00:28:49.879
we saw that there were kids are spending 43 minutes to an hour um during the

00:28:49.879 --> 00:28:53.439
school day so that meant they were either allowed to or they were doing it during

00:28:53.439 --> 00:28:58.119
instruction which are again very specific things but i think even more so is

00:28:58.119 --> 00:29:02.199
what brought them to it typically they're notifications right how many notifications

00:29:02.199 --> 00:29:03.519
were kids getting every day.

00:29:03.739 --> 00:29:07.939
And on average, they were getting 237. But at the top end, kids were getting

00:29:07.939 --> 00:29:10.319
4,500 notifications. So...

00:29:11.394 --> 00:29:14.794
It can be a distraction in the classroom if these notifications are pinging them.

00:29:15.214 --> 00:29:21.814
I think even more important, aside from like, okay, let's take away the distraction. I get that.

00:29:21.894 --> 00:29:24.654
I get the need to want to take away the distraction in the classroom.

00:29:25.614 --> 00:29:29.874
But what is that impulse that's keeping that kid connected to the device and

00:29:29.874 --> 00:29:31.874
why? What's the intention behind it?

00:29:32.514 --> 00:29:37.354
How do they feel about their connection to the platform themselves or the way

00:29:37.354 --> 00:29:38.534
that they use this particular tool?

00:29:38.914 --> 00:29:44.734
Because getting to the root of that is going to really get us to where we,

00:29:44.734 --> 00:29:46.994
where we say these policies are intended for.

00:29:47.274 --> 00:29:53.374
So a lot of the policies intentions are to be addressing wellbeing and academic

00:29:53.374 --> 00:29:59.154
integrity and, um, fostering, uh, you know, joyful learning and playful learning.

00:29:59.294 --> 00:30:05.094
And you could do those things like with or without a band, but we know that

00:30:05.094 --> 00:30:08.714
to remove that big distraction that gets us one step closer,

00:30:08.714 --> 00:30:12.874
like a pretty big step closer in the classroom, of what we're hopefully trying to keep kids focused.

00:30:13.314 --> 00:30:18.074
But it doesn't necessarily solve the anxiety that a child's feeling when their

00:30:18.074 --> 00:30:20.474
phone is not there and they know that they're missing something.

00:30:21.274 --> 00:30:25.514
If anything, it's just delaying it. And once they get it, and then they spend

00:30:25.514 --> 00:30:29.414
all that time now, once they have it, you've got this almost this kind of like

00:30:29.414 --> 00:30:33.534
commitment and explosion of time that might increase outside of the classroom.

00:30:33.734 --> 00:30:37.874
If anything, we'll definitely see that it's going to lead to more restless sleep.

00:30:38.054 --> 00:30:40.174
Kids are just going to sleep less because they know that's going to be taken

00:30:40.174 --> 00:30:42.274
away in the morning when they get to the classroom.

00:30:42.414 --> 00:30:47.134
So if we're going to solve this wellbeing discussion and this mental health

00:30:47.134 --> 00:30:51.034
discussion and really understanding and thinking critically about the impact

00:30:51.034 --> 00:30:53.254
of the way we use it and build real agency,

00:30:54.014 --> 00:30:57.634
then it's got to be more than just the phone bans or the phone policies.

00:30:57.934 --> 00:31:02.154
This is again, Joe, the yes and of the conversation, right? Yeah.

00:31:04.294 --> 00:31:08.434
I've never really heard it put in that perspective. Honestly, I haven't.

00:31:08.594 --> 00:31:12.494
And that was kind of an eye-opening statement, especially when you talk about

00:31:12.494 --> 00:31:16.234
the kid that is like, you know, waiting and waiting and waiting and waiting

00:31:16.234 --> 00:31:19.514
and waiting for the day to end so then they can go out and open up their phone,

00:31:20.354 --> 00:31:23.134
and immediately, you know, get...

00:31:23.134 --> 00:31:25.594
And we want to hope that because it's not in the classroom, they're going to

00:31:25.594 --> 00:31:29.334
be far more engaged into our lecture, right? Or our presentation.

00:31:29.834 --> 00:31:33.574
Well, that's much more now than, you know, about us as educators.

00:31:33.574 --> 00:31:37.234
Like, how are we building up the experience in the classroom for what they're learning?

00:31:37.894 --> 00:31:41.114
And that it's keeping them engaged in a way that they feel connected to it.

00:31:42.274 --> 00:31:45.674
And I've seen in many schools where the policy is very much,

00:31:45.794 --> 00:31:47.674
keep it out of sight if we're not using it in the classroom,

00:31:47.734 --> 00:31:48.714
it shouldn't be out in the classroom.

00:31:49.627 --> 00:31:54.247
But they've got this really engaging lesson that's very well spelled out.

00:31:54.347 --> 00:31:56.087
And they know what they're trying to achieve in doing this work.

00:31:56.247 --> 00:31:58.327
And the cell phones aren't a problem, right?

00:31:58.607 --> 00:32:02.307
So I say this thing that it's not a blanket solution for everyone.

00:32:02.487 --> 00:32:04.387
You really need to understand your community.

00:32:04.607 --> 00:32:07.527
You really need to understand from your parents and your parents' needs,

00:32:07.647 --> 00:32:10.227
understand your students, your student needs, your educators,

00:32:10.267 --> 00:32:13.047
and what kind of support they'll need if you're going to run something like

00:32:13.047 --> 00:32:16.447
this, as well as how they're role models for it.

00:32:16.447 --> 00:32:19.867
I think one of the biggest pushbacks we get from a lot of kids and families

00:32:19.867 --> 00:32:23.507
is the fact that they put actually, they push out these policies and when they're

00:32:23.507 --> 00:32:26.407
doing their work, there's their teachers on their phone, right?

00:32:26.567 --> 00:32:29.647
So how are we role modeling that kind of experience in the classroom?

00:32:29.887 --> 00:32:32.827
There's got to be a consistency and we've got to be all bought in if we're going

00:32:32.827 --> 00:32:36.967
to, if we're going to see like really be as valuable as we hope.

00:32:37.147 --> 00:32:40.147
But again, it's a yes. And just removing the device isn't going to solve the

00:32:40.147 --> 00:32:43.467
bigger issues that we're hoping to solve.

00:32:43.467 --> 00:32:48.087
It's going to take a lot of real support in those conversations and discovery

00:32:48.087 --> 00:32:52.467
and diving into things like digital literacy and citizenship.

00:32:53.607 --> 00:32:58.827
Yeah, I mean, if you've ever seen another adult who has forgotten their phone

00:32:58.827 --> 00:33:05.747
somewhere at home, the car, wherever it might be, you know, it is an immediate,

00:33:06.067 --> 00:33:10.327
I've done it myself, it's an immediate panic situation.

00:33:10.327 --> 00:33:13.487
And logically I know that

00:33:13.487 --> 00:33:16.487
if someone in my family needed me or

00:33:16.487 --> 00:33:19.387
needed something like they know where I am they know

00:33:19.387 --> 00:33:24.667
that they could call and they could find me I've also seen recently an argument

00:33:24.667 --> 00:33:30.767
because we just got these new in our classroom telephones so one of the you

00:33:30.767 --> 00:33:34.967
know the opposite side arguments was well now we all have telephones in our

00:33:34.967 --> 00:33:39.287
classrooms and and if you know we needed to dial 911.

00:33:39.727 --> 00:33:43.747
We can, you know, we have the ability now to dial out, which is new.

00:33:44.567 --> 00:33:49.087
And I guess one of the parents like in an online back and forth about whether

00:33:49.087 --> 00:33:53.247
or not there should be a cell phone ban was, you know, if there's a school shooter,

00:33:53.527 --> 00:33:55.907
my child wants to be able to call me to say goodbye.

00:33:58.027 --> 00:34:00.867
That's hard to come at that, right? It really, I mean, it's like, what?

00:34:01.107 --> 00:34:05.107
But then, you know, and I also, I also go to the number of kids when we used,

00:34:05.207 --> 00:34:08.307
you know, we used to allow Bluetooth headphones in the building for students

00:34:08.307 --> 00:34:10.387
to be able to use them, like connected to their Chromebooks.

00:34:10.507 --> 00:34:11.547
And that was, that was banned.

00:34:12.367 --> 00:34:15.867
Um, which I, which I agreed with because there'd be a number of students that'd

00:34:15.867 --> 00:34:18.927
be walking down the hallway with headphones on, like the ones that we're currently

00:34:18.927 --> 00:34:21.967
wearing or the AirPods in like yourself, Merv.

00:34:22.307 --> 00:34:26.747
And I would pull them aside and I'd say, Hey, I say, you at least got to take

00:34:26.747 --> 00:34:29.007
one out. And they're like, well, I'm just, I said, listen to me.

00:34:29.227 --> 00:34:31.987
If we call code red right now, we call lockdown.

00:34:32.307 --> 00:34:35.647
There's a, there's a, someone in the building that shouldn't be here. Would you hear it?

00:34:36.420 --> 00:34:39.800
And sometimes the music is blaring so loud, the answer to that would be no.

00:34:40.160 --> 00:34:43.660
So God forbid, like, and I know how that makes me sound, but like,

00:34:43.780 --> 00:34:47.160
it's so prevalent in things today that like, it's something I worry about.

00:34:47.320 --> 00:34:51.960
Like, yeah, I mean, we, we, I've had many discussions with school resource officers

00:34:51.960 --> 00:34:55.620
and law enforcement who support, who unfortunately have to support schools when

00:34:55.620 --> 00:34:56.940
there is a problem like this.

00:34:57.140 --> 00:34:59.940
And the reality is it's harder for them to save your kid.

00:35:00.120 --> 00:35:05.780
If the ways arteries to get to your children are clogged by parents and community

00:35:05.780 --> 00:35:07.740
members clogging down the streets to get to the school.

00:35:08.020 --> 00:35:14.940
It is far more disruptive to following directions and keeping quiet so you don't

00:35:14.940 --> 00:35:20.820
create distraction to yourself when you've got kids all on the line crying or

00:35:20.820 --> 00:35:22.940
screaming or streaming the situation.

00:35:22.940 --> 00:35:25.360
So we've lost that layer of safety.

00:35:25.480 --> 00:35:28.320
So I've heard that side of the argument and totally get it as well.

00:35:28.800 --> 00:35:32.980
I think what families need to recognize or understand and this is part of those

00:35:32.980 --> 00:35:36.020
policy conversations uh jimmy that you're that i'm sure.

00:35:36.540 --> 00:35:39.320
Happened when regards to making this decision we need

00:35:39.320 --> 00:35:42.200
a solution for families to know that there's a way to connect with their kids

00:35:42.200 --> 00:35:45.040
because we're taking that away if we're taking away the phones in the classroom

00:35:45.040 --> 00:35:48.440
because that's a lot of the big primary conversations is the safety side and

00:35:48.440 --> 00:35:51.820
a phone in your classroom now like a hard line in your classroom is here's one

00:35:51.820 --> 00:35:58.340
of our solutions right trying to make that available so uh it's it's a way of

00:35:58.340 --> 00:36:01.180
trying to meet and mitigate the various stakeholders,

00:36:01.600 --> 00:36:06.580
but it'll only be successful if we can get all stakeholders on board.

00:36:07.600 --> 00:36:12.660
Right. Yeah, I know there was a Facebook post question by one of our board members,

00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:18.900
like, should our school district, should Woodbridge ban cell phones in the classroom?

00:36:19.240 --> 00:36:28.240
And overwhelmingly, I think that most people in that post were in support of

00:36:28.240 --> 00:36:29.560
cell phones being banned.

00:36:30.320 --> 00:36:34.100
I think if you're, you know, as educators, we see like a fight happens,

00:36:34.100 --> 00:36:37.180
it's immediately recorded, it's put out on social media for everyone to see,

00:36:37.320 --> 00:36:38.820
and then it winds up making it out to the news.

00:36:39.840 --> 00:36:45.420
Or, you know, the person that, you know, it records a teacher doing something

00:36:45.420 --> 00:36:48.980
in the classroom and it winds up being a disciplinary issue.

00:36:49.160 --> 00:36:51.240
So like there's those things that I'm very sensitive towards,

00:36:51.240 --> 00:36:55.420
not because it hasn't happened to me, but I'm just saying like, like.

00:36:55.420 --> 00:36:58.340
And that was a trend before i mean that was yeah like

00:36:58.340 --> 00:37:01.360
a very explicit trend like how do we date our teachers yeah how

00:37:01.360 --> 00:37:04.860
do we how do we you know how do we wind up on youtube with it with a million

00:37:04.860 --> 00:37:10.020
hits uh to because we you know embarrassed our teacher had them freak out and

00:37:10.020 --> 00:37:14.520
then they yelled at us you know and and that that to me is something i'm very

00:37:14.520 --> 00:37:16.160
uh sensitive towards and you

00:37:16.160 --> 00:37:19.640
know we've talked about the notifications and stuff like that but yeah um,

00:37:20.595 --> 00:37:25.455
As far as like, okay, every, I think that a lot of these policies that come

00:37:25.455 --> 00:37:28.295
about, at least from educators that I've talked to in various districts,

00:37:28.555 --> 00:37:31.455
like they put these policies in place, but they're not enforcing the policies.

00:37:32.695 --> 00:37:35.695
It's not consistent. There are some teachers that are like, oh, we're cool.

00:37:36.015 --> 00:37:39.135
And then there are others that are like, this is so hard because they're not

00:37:39.135 --> 00:37:39.975
listening in the world as well.

00:37:40.135 --> 00:37:45.395
There's no continuity. I know at one point when I was at one middle school that

00:37:45.395 --> 00:37:46.875
I was teaching at earlier in my career,

00:37:47.075 --> 00:37:52.175
when, you know, cell phones and smartphones became a bigger deal that the principal

00:37:52.175 --> 00:37:55.395
at the time was like, you guys could use your phones during lunch if you want

00:37:55.395 --> 00:37:57.115
to use them. And everybody's like, okay, here we go.

00:37:58.215 --> 00:38:03.455
And, and it was, but you just can't text or call anyone that's not in the building.

00:38:03.995 --> 00:38:06.395
And I'm like, that's not, it's not policeable.

00:38:07.195 --> 00:38:12.515
Like you can't, you can't monitor that. Like, and that gets said sometimes to

00:38:12.515 --> 00:38:16.275
my own children that are at the high school, which they are on their phones constantly.

00:38:17.735 --> 00:38:21.815
And what are they doing? They're listening to music. My son has a playlist of

00:38:21.815 --> 00:38:24.775
every eclectic musical genre that you could possibly put out there.

00:38:25.935 --> 00:38:30.795
My wife's friends call him Midwest Joe because he's not East Coast or West Coast

00:38:30.795 --> 00:38:32.655
in regards to his rap preferences.

00:38:33.235 --> 00:38:36.635
So they say he's like not what they say. Midwest. Yeah. Midwest show.

00:38:36.715 --> 00:38:39.595
They call him like right in the middle because he's got to be on both sides.

00:38:39.815 --> 00:38:45.075
Um but no it's it's things like that like yeah i know me too um yeah it's things

00:38:45.075 --> 00:38:48.295
like that like it's not policeable like and you and again putting it on the

00:38:48.295 --> 00:38:49.615
plate of an educator of like,

00:38:50.135 --> 00:38:54.055
you know well you guys help enforce this and have them put the phones away like

00:38:54.055 --> 00:38:59.995
you can only do so much yeah yeah i mean for my own kids i've set it up so as

00:38:59.995 --> 00:39:05.155
soon as it hits 8 30 it locks down and they've got two people they can text

00:39:05.155 --> 00:39:06.795
or call and that's the only

00:39:06.875 --> 00:39:12.055
they can do on their phones well that and and and photos so they can take pictures um and you know,

00:39:12.555 --> 00:39:16.075
as long as we've had the discussion on appropriate you know picture taking and

00:39:16.075 --> 00:39:19.795
asking for permission and all that stuff but it locks down and then at 3 30

00:39:19.795 --> 00:39:23.415
once the bell rings it opens back up again you know and that's apparent that's

00:39:23.415 --> 00:39:27.095
me as a parent doing that and they understand that and they get it because they

00:39:27.095 --> 00:39:30.275
know they're at school for a very particular reason right um.

00:39:32.244 --> 00:39:35.524
But again, like, how do you get everyone on the same page? Like if parents were

00:39:35.524 --> 00:39:38.924
all doing that and schools like had this particular, it would be a lot easier.

00:39:39.204 --> 00:39:43.544
Right. But that also, again, assumes that we're having discussions on the why.

00:39:43.924 --> 00:39:47.084
We're not just doing it. We're having some really thoughtful discussions as

00:39:47.084 --> 00:39:49.024
what I want you to get out of your time at school.

00:39:49.304 --> 00:39:51.884
Why it's so important to be able to be present for your teachers,

00:39:52.084 --> 00:39:55.464
but for your friends, you know, and like we hear friend groups all the time.

00:39:55.624 --> 00:39:58.124
It's so irritating because I'm trying to talk to them and they're always on their phone.

00:39:58.324 --> 00:40:02.204
Oh, my goodness. Yeah. You remove them and there's that conversation of like,

00:40:02.324 --> 00:40:04.564
oh, it's so much better. We can actually talk.

00:40:04.844 --> 00:40:08.384
I think where we need to be careful is like when we start to say that,

00:40:08.504 --> 00:40:10.864
oh, yes, if we remove them all, all our kids are going to talk.

00:40:11.744 --> 00:40:16.744
The reality is, you know, for kids that have a friend group, they might talk more.

00:40:16.964 --> 00:40:20.604
For kids that still don't feel connected to other folks, their friend groups

00:40:20.604 --> 00:40:25.344
that they have, they exist in other states or other countries or other cities.

00:40:25.664 --> 00:40:28.664
And they feel connection in a way that they never had in their own communities.

00:40:29.344 --> 00:40:32.684
And that's the double edge, right? Of being online, right?

00:40:32.844 --> 00:40:36.164
There are some real opportunities and connections that these kids make from

00:40:36.164 --> 00:40:38.024
instruction and learning to friendship.

00:40:40.124 --> 00:40:45.004
And we want to be, at the same time, are incredibly wary of going too far,

00:40:45.144 --> 00:40:49.944
going too all in, or finding connection with the wrong people or the wrong groups.

00:40:50.344 --> 00:40:53.684
I heard this quote, which I found it very interesting as we think about,

00:40:53.764 --> 00:40:57.764
especially this conversation around just devices in the lives of kids,

00:40:57.764 --> 00:41:02.644
but especially how we're thinking about right now, like cell phones in schools.

00:41:04.184 --> 00:41:07.084
And it's that we've all been feeling kind of this frustration,

00:41:07.604 --> 00:41:11.624
whether it be around kind of like the academic need or the distraction sense

00:41:11.624 --> 00:41:13.764
or social media or bullying, whatever the issues are.

00:41:14.964 --> 00:41:17.944
And cell phones and removing cell phones from the classroom has become kind

00:41:17.944 --> 00:41:21.424
of this vessel of a solution that we're all like, oh, this is it.

00:41:21.884 --> 00:41:27.544
But again, it all feels like a very easy vessel for us to all kind of attach to.

00:41:27.764 --> 00:41:32.584
But it may not necessarily be the vehicle to drive solutions.

00:41:32.884 --> 00:41:36.784
It could be one way to get started, but it's far more complicated,

00:41:37.044 --> 00:41:39.464
nuanced than just saying remove the device.

00:41:39.584 --> 00:41:43.644
But we're all looking for a vessel to blame, somewhere to put all of our frustrations.

00:41:44.044 --> 00:41:49.424
And then we've had literature like The Anxious Generation and a number of other

00:41:49.424 --> 00:41:54.664
books that have come up and really very specifically said it's because of these phones.

00:41:54.664 --> 00:42:00.104
And if we remove these things, it'll change the way our kids interact and live.

00:42:00.264 --> 00:42:08.044
And that's just not rooted yet in any real data that can be replicated in every single district.

00:42:08.344 --> 00:42:12.784
That's not the experience for every school. They'll find pockets of opportunities

00:42:12.784 --> 00:42:17.524
or pockets of really great things that have come up from it.

00:42:19.284 --> 00:42:22.604
But my community here in California is going to be different from your community

00:42:22.604 --> 00:42:25.644
over in Woodbridge. So the impact is not necessarily going to be consistent.

00:42:26.084 --> 00:42:27.224
We need to know our communities.

00:42:29.382 --> 00:42:34.902
And, and perhaps even school to school within a district based on age or even

00:42:34.902 --> 00:42:39.342
leadership, you know, it can be, it may not even be in the same,

00:42:39.502 --> 00:42:41.562
within the same town that it would be the same thing.

00:42:41.562 --> 00:42:44.742
Yeah and yeah absolutely i

00:42:44.742 --> 00:42:47.882
mean at and you know nerv uh i can't thank you enough for for

00:42:47.882 --> 00:42:52.142
wanting to join us being a part of the conversation today um you know not just

00:42:52.142 --> 00:42:56.522
not just uh personally because i enjoy you and i enjoy talking with you but

00:42:56.522 --> 00:43:00.142
i know that your perspective comes from a place that's rooted in like you're

00:43:00.142 --> 00:43:02.622
also on the other side of the fence with this right you're you're parenting

00:43:02.622 --> 00:43:06.842
to you know a teenager and a soon-to-be teenager god Yeah,

00:43:06.862 --> 00:43:09.042
yeah. Oh, they're just teens. God bless you.

00:43:09.542 --> 00:43:15.362
Yeah. Yeah, and it's all things that we are, like, sharing and shared experiences

00:43:15.362 --> 00:43:19.282
together, whether it's, you know, in two different parts of the country,

00:43:19.402 --> 00:43:20.822
but the experience is still the same.

00:43:21.322 --> 00:43:24.982
And I really appreciate your insight and your willingness to join us on our show today.

00:43:25.822 --> 00:43:30.022
So, as always, Jamie and Merv, I appreciate you very much.

00:43:30.322 --> 00:43:35.742
Joseph and Merv, I appreciate you both. Well, Merv, thank you so much for all

00:43:35.742 --> 00:43:37.542
of the information that you shared with us today.

00:43:37.642 --> 00:43:41.562
We hope we can have you back again here on the Balancing Act.

00:43:41.520 --> 00:44:23.892
Music.